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But, the problem is that we can't get up close to see for ourselves. Why, we can't even take photographs of anything that takes place inside a black hole — if light cannot escape their immense gravity , then nothing can be snapped by a camera.

As it stands, theory suggests that anything which goes beyond the event horizon is simply added to the black hole and, what's more, because time distorts close to this boundary, this will appear to take place incredibly slowly, so answers won't be quickly forthcoming.

They'll just get redder and fainter as they approach the event horizon [as a result of gravitational red shift]. But the friend falls right in, to a place beyond 'forever.

Certainly, if black holes do lead to another part of a galaxy or another universe, there would need to be something opposite to them on the other side.

Could this be a white hole — a theory put forward by Russian cosmologist Igor Novikov in ? Novikov proposed that a black hole links to a white hole that exists in the past.

Unlike a black hole, a white hole will allow light and matter to leave, but light and matter will not be able to enter.

Scientists have continued to explore the potential connection between black and white holes. Haggard claimed that "there is a classic metric satisfying the Einstein equations outside a finite space-time region where matter collapses into a black hole and then emerges from a while hole.

Far from destroying the information that it absorbs, the collapse of a black hole would be halted. It would instead experience a quantum bounce, allowing information to escape.

Should this be the case, it would shed some light on a proposal by former Cambridge University cosmologist and theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking who, in the s, explored the possibility that black holes emit particles and radiation — thermal heat — as a result of quantum fluctuations.

Hawking calculated that the radiation would cause a black hole to lose energy, shrink and disappear, as described in his paper published in Physical Review D.

Given his claims that the radiation emitted would be random and contain no information about what had fallen in, the black hole, upon its explosion, would erase loads of information.

This meant Hawking's idea was at odds with quantum theory, which says information can't be destroyed. Physics states information just becomes more difficult to find because, should it become lost, it becomes impossible to know the past or the future.

Hawking's idea led to the 'black hole information paradox' and it has long puzzled scientists. Some have said Hawking was simply wrong, and the man himself even declared he had made an error during a scientific conference in Dublin in So, do we go back to the concept of black holes emitting preserved information and throwing it back out via a white hole?

In their study published in Physical Review Letters , Jorge Pullin at Louisiana State University and Rodolfo Gambini at the University of the Republic in Montevideo, Uruguay, applied loop quantum gravity to a black hole and found that gravity increased towards the core but reduced and plonked whatever was entering into another region of the universe.

The results gave extra credence to the idea of black holes serving as a portal. In this study, singularity does not exist, and so it doesn't form an impenetrable barrier that ends up crushing whatever it encounters.

It also means that information doesn't disappear. They worked on a theory that became known as the AMPS firewall, or the black hole firewall hypothesis.

By their calculations, quantum mechanics could feasibly turn the event horizon into a giant wall of fire and anything coming into contact would burn in an instant.

In that sense, black holes lead nowhere because nothing could ever get inside. This, however, violates Einstein's general theory of relativity.

Someone crossing the event horizon shouldn't actually feel any great hardship because an object would be in free fall and, based on the equivalence principle, that object — or person — would not feel the extreme effects of gravity.

It could follow the laws of physics present elsewhere in the universe, but even if it didn't go against Einstein's principle it would undermine quantum field theory or suggest information can be lost.

Step forward Hawking once more. In , he published a study in which he eschewed the existence of an event horizon — meaning there is nothing there to burn — saying gravitational collapse would produce an 'apparent horizon' instead.

This horizon would suspend light rays trying to move away from the core of the black hole, and would persist for a "period of time.

A simple illustration of this principle would be the no-cloning theorem. The way I see it, it says that you can't destroy the information in the register the qubit into which you cant to copy some information in a way consistent with unitary evolution.

If you managed to do it, then you should be able to invert the unitary evolution and generate the information from the register which you're supposed to have destroyed.

As for hidden information, think of it as being temporarily hidden. When some information is inside the black hole, you can't access that information and the black hole has a corresponding entropy.

When the black hole evaporates away, there is nothing left to contain the entropy, so the information must have been sent out somehow and it's now un-hidden or so it's believed, as of today.

Again, I don't think there's a concrete calculation to establish this definitively -- mainly since we don't have a good handle on quantum gravity.

It's the ideal because physical transforms can, at best, discriminate between as many states before the transform as after it; anything more is impossible while anything less looks like an opportunity for improvement.

So, the very best a physical model can ever do is conserve information. For example, if 10 bits of information are known about a physical system and no more information is gained e.

By contrast, it's easy to lose information. Worth noting that information is a property of a model and not the universe itself, so different observers can perceive different information leaks.

So, the ideal's perfect information preservation. Whenever we fail to preserve information, we can't be sure that our models are complete.

Then, the assertion that information's indestructible is basically the idealistic demand that the laws of physics reach that theoretical optimality.

As an ideal, it's worth noting that it's not necessarily a practical truth. We can construct hypothetical laws of physics that would practically not preserve information; if any of those happen to be the case, then the claim that information's indestructible would continue to be unrealized.

Regardless, systems that appear to lose information are glaring targets for scientists for two big reasons:.

Any sort of prediction that can be made based on the " lost " information constitutes a novel discovery. Most of the current laws of physics purport to conserve information, so they're ready tools to attack the lossful system with.

The black hole stuff is an example of the second point. If black holes appear to leak information whereas current theories don't, then that seems like a prime opportunity to attack black hole models with other theories and see what falls out of it.

A bunch of people answered but with very complicated things. So I am going to answer with some far more understandable and fun things Firstly Susskind thinks, like many people, that physical laws are reversible and therefore it stands to reason that information cannot be lost otherwise you would't be able to reverse things.

And when he says that information is not lost, he means in theory, regarding the whole universe with a god-like state of knowledge, not to any particular person.

Then there is the question of exactly what you mean by entropy. Entropy is information in the system that you don't know. For example in a bathtub of water conventional observations might include the temperature, pressure, and volume, but there are countless bits of information encoded in the states of all the water molecules, their motions and vibrational modes.

This is unknown information and much is not even observable in practice; all we know is things about the energy distribution. The number of bits of entropy would be the number of bits of additional information above what you know already, that you would need to laboriously catalog in order to fully describe the system at one instant.

Let's consider one mode of information loss: erasing computer data. Whenever a bit is flipped in a computer memory, that information is over written and conventionally we consider it to be lost.

However physically flipping these bits generates heat in the circuitry and that cascade of atomic scale events involves the dissipation of that bit of information into thermal vibration modes.

So you ask, can this information be recovered from the environment so we can know the value of the bit? The answer is no in this specific case because the heat from the bit has almost infinite dimensions to dissipate into, and so there's no real practical way to gather that back together, but it doesn't mean that the information is destroyed, just that it is no longer accessible to us, and therefore becomes unknown information, which we know is there, and is quantifiable, and so we call it entropy.

Now let me show you a way in which entropy can actually be reduced. Let's suppose you have a box into which you throw computer cables, like USB cables or power cords.

Maybe you initially lay them on top of each other in an ordered way. But then a year later you come to that box and all the cords are tangled up in a big hairball.

The initial ordered state has low entropy. You put the cables in on top each other in some order, so supposedly you should know some information about the arrangement of the contents of the box, even if you don't know all the specifics.

Now over time, people might poke around in the box looking for one cable or another so stirring around the contents, and pushing things aside and vibrating the contents in various ways.

This is disordered unknown environmental information that is being added to the box contents. Its a random bunch of forces on various cables over time, and you are not making any note of that information.

So the entropy of the system hidden information from the external random perturbations is being increased.

In the end you have a whole bunch of cables that are knotted together in various ways, instead of being independent and simply organized.

The information encoded in all those knots and tangles came from the random environmental information that was added.

This is the increase in entropy. So then not being happy with this situation, you decide to organize them. But in practice what that means is that you have to undo all the knots by perceptually following each cable through the system and becoming cognizant of the information that was added, in order to unthread all the tangles and separate them again.

So this process of sorting that you do is lowering the entropy of the system because you are exhaustively cataloging and rapidly forgetting exactly how the hidden information was encoded in the cable tangles.

But also note that this process required energy and time on your part. And the information that was encoded in the cable tangles went into your brain, and then was forgotten, and dissipated as thermal energy.

But the weird thing is that entropy is related to your state of knowledge. So that means you and I can potentially ascribe different entropy to the same system depending on what we know in advance.

For example if I receive a million bits of information, I can calculate the frequency of the 1s and 0s and other statistics, and that gives me some information, but then the rest I consider to be hidden and therefore I can put a large entropy number on it.

In the same way if someone had somehow noted how each interaction with the box of cables over time had affected them, then at the end the entropy would be low from the viewpoint of that person even though the cables would still be tangled.

It's just that that person who watched how they got tangled didn't allow the information to become hidden, and in theory doesn't need to actually analyze the cables at the end in order to understand them, they could mechanically untangle them like a robot with zero or low levels of perception.

My understanding was always that this was a result of time evolution preserving measure in state space.

Now let's consider the time evolution of the entropy. Another case to look at is quantum mechanics. Notice here that it wasn't sufficient for the dynamics to be reversible.

The dynamics really need to preserve volume in state space. ANY current state of matters is an 'effect' that resulted from infinite amount of causes.

And it also is a cause for subsequent effects itself. In short, just like matter, information also transforms, changes into different states through cause and effect mechanics.

So, what we call 'chaos' or 'entropy' or any other seemingly incomprehensible and un-trackable state of existence, is also a state which results from infinite numbers of causes leading to effects.

That we are not able to track, distinguish, calculate, comprehend, explain such states of existence does not mean that they are outside the cause-effect mechanic and other mechanics that make existence.

So any state in a chaotic, entropic state should be theoretically traceable to earlier states, should actually be coming to being due to cause-effect mechanics that can be observed, calculated if you had the means to, and also should naturally be linked to any earlier state of information - including the state where the entropy, chaos or 'destroyed information' did not come to being yet, and the earlier information we were observing was there as it was.

Conservation of information, if you will. Information is also subject to the cause-effect mechanics that is inviolable anywhere in existence.

That some cases seem to 'violate' cause and effect relationships - like some quantum physics experiments - does not mean that they violate the mechanic in regard to general existence itself, leave aside universe.

If you would look at black holes and explanation susskind and others brought, there is no exception - information is protected and conserved and linked in this or that way.

Therefore it is indestructible : you should be able to reconstruct any information which led to the CURRENT state of information by analyzing current state of information and deconstructing it.

Which includes anything falling into black hole and merging into singularity. Sign up to join this community. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top.

Home Questions Tags Users Unanswered. Why is information indestructible? Ask Question. Asked 8 years, 4 months ago. Active 1 year, 1 month ago.

Viewed 22k times. Is that information that is lost, through the increase of entropy really recoverable? MarianD 1, 2 2 gold badges 8 8 silver badges 16 16 bronze badges.

Is it based on a popularization? The only context the question if information could get destroyed left therefore is therefore in the context of black holes which the OP does not want to hear about.

But even in this case, the issue has been solved as can be read for example on [many] site:motls. Active Oldest Votes. The 'field equations' consist of a set of allowed colorings for each 2x2 block of cells: A total of 27 local color patterns are allowed.

Suppose that when looking "North" or "West" along the lattice directions, you hit a horizon beyond which an infinite sea of yellow squares stretches: "North" and "West" we label as 'light rays from the past'.

Given this 'snapshot', and using the field equations the allowed 2x2 colorings , we can start reconstructing the past: Here, the rule applied to color the cell follows from the square at the bottom of the center column in the overview of the 27 allowed 2x2 squares.

Continuing like this, we obtain the full past of the universe up to any point we desire: We notice that we constructed the full past knowing the colorings of 'light ray cells' in the 'snapshot' that, excluding the uniform sea beyond the horizons, count no more than 25 cells.

Now we reverse the dynamics, and an interesting thing happens: knowing only 9 color values of light rays to the future again excluding the uniform sea beyond the horizon : We can reconstruct the full future: We refer to these 9 trits that define the full evolution of this cellular automata universe as the 'information content' of the universe.

These observations, however, go well beyond the questions asked. Johannes Johannes Can you make the reconstruction part more specific?

Where are some of the numbers coming from? The 9 trits are clearly the ones that are hidden. And thank you for reviving this thread.

It was fun working out this toy model and turning it into an "entropy growing universe". As I noted above, the patterns and rules that he introduces define a cellular automata that creates a pattern known as a Sierpinski carpet.

Here is an image generated from the rules: Sierpinski Carpet. I don't think deterministically generating a image from a set of rules and an inital pattern really sheds much light on the issue.

The statement "information is indestructible" is a strange one, I would like to understand what it refers to, My question is how an 'hypothetical information' not recoverable by any mean can be still called information?

As I said, I guess he was probably just talking about unitarity. This is a more general way of putting the unitary evolution description given in other answers.

Edit 2nd August Answers to Prathyush's questions : I could not understand the connection between thermodynamic entropy and kolmogorov complexity, Please can you comment on that.

Now let's try to deal with: I could not understand the connection between thermodynamic entropy and kolmogorov complexity, Please can you comment on that.

Lastly : If you know the exact state of the system, then in physics entropy is zero Here our problems are the subtle distinctions 1 between an instance of an ensemble of systems, all assumed to be members of the same random process or "population" and the ensemble itself, 2 Information and Thermodynamic entropies and 3 unconditional and conditional information theoretic entropies.

Selene Routley Selene Routley They are two different but related things. I struggle with these concepts in situations like these especially whether probabalistic ideas are even meaningful in situations like the Black Hole IP and I don't think I'm alone.

I'm simply trying to get across the notion that hidden is not the same as destroyed or even unrecoverable, and I didn't want to clutter that with other ideas too much - these deep discussions seriously test any technical writing abilities of mine.

What is wrong with this as an explanation of how information might be hidden but not destroyed? Please give reasons: we might learn something from you.

My understanding is that one of the main aims of this site is to share knowledge. Siva Siva 5, 16 16 silver badges 33 33 bronze badges.

Regardless, systems that appear to lose information are glaring targets for scientists for two big reasons: Any sort of prediction that can be made based on the " lost " information constitutes a novel discovery.

Nat Nat 4, 4 4 gold badges 21 21 silver badges 35 35 bronze badges. In a nutshell, scientists hope that information is indestructible, and tie themselves in theoretical knots to try to make sure this possibility is preserved.

Robotbugs Robotbugs 1 1 silver badge 9 9 bronze badges. Brian Moths Brian Moths 9, 20 20 silver badges 40 40 bronze badges.

It's hard even to see how this addresses the question, and I pretty much understand your math. There is cause and effect.

That some cases seem to 'violate' cause and effect relationships - like some quantum physics experiments - does not mean that they violate the mechanic in regard to general existence itself, leave aside universe If you would look at black holes and explanation susskind and others brought, there is no exception - information is protected and conserved and linked in this or that way.

It is quite easy to construct equations describing the continuous time evolution of a system, where information is still lost permanently over time.

You need to impose an additional constraint to ensure information is preserved; in the quantum mechanical formalism this constraint is unitarity.

And refer to the point where it says "That we are not able to track, distinguish, calculate, comprehend, explain such states of existence does not mean that they are outside the cause-effect mechanic and other mechanics that make existence.

Just like how black holes 'destroyed information' until susskind came up with an explanation.

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